Do Han and Leia Creep You Out?
Mar. 28th, 2009 05:55 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lazypadawanOver the past week on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
jedi_news, I found a link to a meta on Papa George's strange comments on developing Indiana Jones's relationship with a very underage Marion and what that implied for Han and Leia. The responses to the post discussed Han and Leia's first kiss and how it kind of creeped out a number of respondees. They pointed out Han's aggression and how he uses his height to practically back Leia into a corner. The scene does have that "if she says 'no,' she really means yes" vibe to it that to a generation inducted with all kinds of good touching/bad touching instruction is an anathema.
For me, it was and still is one of my favorite scenes in the saga.
Now I will say that when people knock Anakin and Padmé for their age difference, I point out that Han is at least 10 years Leia's senior...if that's okay, then there's nothing wrong with Padmé being a few years older than Anakin. When people complain that Anakin is a creepy psycho stalker, I always point out that Anakin actually respects Padmé's boundaries while Han at times doesn't respect Leia's. Granted, Han turned out better than Anakin did, but pre-Dark Side, Anakin was actually very respectful of Padmé. Han gets away with all of that plus his infamous, "I know" response to Leia's declaration of love because to many fans, he's cool. "Wow, what a pimp," thinks many a fanboy. Anakin's an emotional, vulnerable wreck in contrast to his tremendous power, his actions more like a nice guy trying to grope his way around a girl for the first time than a stud who knows all of the slick lines.
All of that said, the kissing scene doesn't bother me. I view it in the context of the fact something has been happening between Han and Leia for a while, and both of them are frustrated with themselves and each other because of all of the barriers they won't break down. That's why they argue all of the time. Han decides to take the initiative the only way he knows how, physically. (Anakin does so physically, then emotionally. Interestingly enough, the emotional soul-baring speech is the act that really freaks out Padmé, not the kissing or rolling around on the grass.) That's the kind of guy he is. It takes carbonite, another movie, and a blaster hot wound to get him to open up otherwise. I think if Leia truly didn't want anything to do with him, he would have known it and he would have left her alone. Failing that, Han would have been singing soprano the rest of the saga.
Granted, TESB was made during a politically-incorrect age and the romance was inspired by those old screwball comedies where the man is usually the one who breaks down the leading lady's resistance. It's not rape. Han didn't put roofies in Leia's drink and if you notice, Leia puts up no resistance at all. She didn't mean anything she was telling Han. Like it or not, people don't always act in accordance with what's taught in a Women's Studies class or college behavior codes.
Around the the time TESB came out, America's fangirls were all over another ship: the hugely popular Luke (Tony Geary) and Laura (Genie Francis) from the soap opera General Hospital. When Luke and Laura had their fairy tale wedding in 1981, it broke daytime t.v. records and millions of women chucked school or work to stay home and watch it. The rich ones could tape it on their VCR ;). You know what was really messed up about Luke and Laura? They fell in love after Luke raped her a couple of years beforehand! And this was acceptable for years! Supposedly GH addressed this lurid topic several years later but still...creepy and sooooo wrong.
Kinda like Luke and Leia's incest kiss ;).
jedi_news, I found a link to a meta on Papa George's strange comments on developing Indiana Jones's relationship with a very underage Marion and what that implied for Han and Leia. The responses to the post discussed Han and Leia's first kiss and how it kind of creeped out a number of respondees. They pointed out Han's aggression and how he uses his height to practically back Leia into a corner. The scene does have that "if she says 'no,' she really means yes" vibe to it that to a generation inducted with all kinds of good touching/bad touching instruction is an anathema.For me, it was and still is one of my favorite scenes in the saga.
Now I will say that when people knock Anakin and Padmé for their age difference, I point out that Han is at least 10 years Leia's senior...if that's okay, then there's nothing wrong with Padmé being a few years older than Anakin. When people complain that Anakin is a creepy psycho stalker, I always point out that Anakin actually respects Padmé's boundaries while Han at times doesn't respect Leia's. Granted, Han turned out better than Anakin did, but pre-Dark Side, Anakin was actually very respectful of Padmé. Han gets away with all of that plus his infamous, "I know" response to Leia's declaration of love because to many fans, he's cool. "Wow, what a pimp," thinks many a fanboy. Anakin's an emotional, vulnerable wreck in contrast to his tremendous power, his actions more like a nice guy trying to grope his way around a girl for the first time than a stud who knows all of the slick lines.
All of that said, the kissing scene doesn't bother me. I view it in the context of the fact something has been happening between Han and Leia for a while, and both of them are frustrated with themselves and each other because of all of the barriers they won't break down. That's why they argue all of the time. Han decides to take the initiative the only way he knows how, physically. (Anakin does so physically, then emotionally. Interestingly enough, the emotional soul-baring speech is the act that really freaks out Padmé, not the kissing or rolling around on the grass.) That's the kind of guy he is. It takes carbonite, another movie, and a blaster hot wound to get him to open up otherwise. I think if Leia truly didn't want anything to do with him, he would have known it and he would have left her alone. Failing that, Han would have been singing soprano the rest of the saga.
Granted, TESB was made during a politically-incorrect age and the romance was inspired by those old screwball comedies where the man is usually the one who breaks down the leading lady's resistance. It's not rape. Han didn't put roofies in Leia's drink and if you notice, Leia puts up no resistance at all. She didn't mean anything she was telling Han. Like it or not, people don't always act in accordance with what's taught in a Women's Studies class or college behavior codes.
Around the the time TESB came out, America's fangirls were all over another ship: the hugely popular Luke (Tony Geary) and Laura (Genie Francis) from the soap opera General Hospital. When Luke and Laura had their fairy tale wedding in 1981, it broke daytime t.v. records and millions of women chucked school or work to stay home and watch it. The rich ones could tape it on their VCR ;). You know what was really messed up about Luke and Laura? They fell in love after Luke raped her a couple of years beforehand! And this was acceptable for years! Supposedly GH addressed this lurid topic several years later but still...creepy and sooooo wrong.
Kinda like Luke and Leia's incest kiss ;).
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Date: 2009-03-29 01:47 am (UTC)That was exactly what I wanted to say, only better.
Thank you, again!
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Date: 2009-03-29 07:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 02:17 am (UTC)Stranger still, your post was followed on my f-list by a post talking about the phenomenon of so many parents objecting to sex in books and movies, but not violence. Sort of works together in my head in a way. It's just weird the way some people relate to stories and characters.
When it comes down to it... sure, Han may have pushed some boundaries, but Leia had certainly been pushing buttons! And it was pretty obvious that Leia could have left if she wanted to. He backed off quickly enough when she elbowed him at first, then came back in VERY slowly. I see it more in the context of Han finally knowing her well enough to see that she WAS attracted to him, but was scared to do anything about it. They'd known each other, what, three years at that point?
Besides, they weren't THAT alone on the ship. If he did anything to her, Chewie would have ripped his arms off. (If not something else.)
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Date: 2009-03-29 07:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 02:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 07:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 02:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 02:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 03:29 am (UTC)As for that other nonsense...oh please. Those people are extrapolating from a remark Lucas made about "Raiders" and trying to make a connection that simply isn't there. Yes, Lucas's idea of Indy/Marion beginning when she's 11 was icky (especially given that we don't know how much older Indy was than Marion), and thankfully got overridden. What does that have to do with Han and Leia?
Oh, and the Han/Leia Falcon kiss is one of MY favorite scenes in the saga as well. With some exceptions, just about ever hetero SW she-geek I know, including myself, would LOVE to trade places with Leia right then. The Falcon kiss was not the first time I saw a kissing scene in a big-screen movie, but I can tell you, it was one of the most memorable.
*sigh*
But back to the point. Leia could have easily gotten out of there if she really wanted to. She could have kneed Han in the privates, or slapped him, or simply shoved him away. She'd already shoved him away when he came up behind her and put his hands over hers. All that said, I do think there is some validity to the claim that Han uses his height to "back her into a corner," but he couldn't have done that without Leia's permission. "No means yes" doesn't really apply here. He didn't try to have sex with her, he just kissed her. And I don't think it was premeditated. He simply seized a golden opportunity to make her face her feelings for him, because he was tired of all the game-playing. Let's not overlook that she not only let him kiss her, she kissed him back.
Though Leia's true age is somewhat up for debate (so is Han's, for that matter, though he's definitely older than she), Leia is obviously an adult. Some versions have her being 23 when the events of ESB happen, some have her being 21...but it doesn't really matter, because neither of those ages is anything close to 11, either chronologically or emotionally.
In one of the earliest drafts of ESB, Han does come across as a bit of a sexual predator...in a scene that I think was eventually turned into the Falcon kiss, Han strides into the cabin where Leia is staying, pushes her down on the bunk, and starts kissing her. Let's just say I'm glad that didn't survive the subsequent drafts.
Luke and Laura? Blech. I never "got" them, although admittedly I was MUCH too young to watch GH during Luke and Laura's "reign." I have watched some later episodes, when they returned to GH after a lengthy absence. When I found out that Laura "fell for" Luke after he raped her, I was frankly appalled. And I was further appalled when I learned how the soap tried to "pretty it up," by calling it a "seduction," and basically ruining Laura's then-fiancé Scott as a character so as to make viewers root for Luke/Laura.
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Date: 2009-03-29 07:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 05:33 am (UTC)The Han/Leia kiss has never bothered me -- it's obvious Leia is into him. What amuses me more in ESB is Lando's over-the-top male pig comments towards Leia. I thought he was supposed to be smooth, not sleazy! lol
I like the canon pairing of Anakin/Padme, but I do find them to be a bit creepier than Han/Leia. (and their love story not as fleshed out, unfortunately) I like reading fic where the creepy aspect is explored.
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Date: 2009-03-29 07:02 pm (UTC)I don't watch soaps now. Back in the day, I was mostly a CBS soap girl (The Young and The Restless, As The World Turns, Guiding Light). Retconning a rape like that really sends the wrong message.
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Date: 2009-03-30 07:26 pm (UTC)"Hello, what have we here?"
goes back to what LP said:
"... where the man is usually the one who breaks down the leading lady's resistance."
that's pretty much the lesson of film and TV up until the 90s and 2000s - that a normal guy can get the attractive girl by just wearing her down by harassing her. Bill Murray wore down Sigourney Weaver in Ghostbusters.
As for the age thing - they were both clearly adults, at which point age is not much an issue. not sure why people were/are creeped out by Han and Leia's kiss - we see earlier on Hoth that while Leia wants to believe that it's all in Han's head, she clearly does harbor some attraction to him - she could just be torn between the older bad guy rogue and the younger fawning innocent farmboy.
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Date: 2009-03-30 07:37 pm (UTC)And while she does do some of the "no really means yes" thing (one of their scenes is actually almost word for word the same as one in Gone With the Wind!), she really doesn't protest when he moves in to kiss her. It's very obvious she wants it. She could have ducked away or pushed him back or something.
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Date: 2009-03-30 07:41 pm (UTC)(and awesome & appropriate avatar!)
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Date: 2009-03-31 07:50 pm (UTC)I'd love seeing your thoughts on this expanded! (Also, d'you have any good fic recs?)
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Date: 2009-04-01 05:13 am (UTC)Here we have a meme fic (really a collection of snippets).
This one and this one are not so much creepy as dark-y.
I also like this AU from
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Date: 2009-03-29 07:37 am (UTC)I think it's pretty clear that it's not a rape scene: the scene isn't squicky because it's a "No means No" moment. It's squicky because it's a "No Means Yes" moment and everything that implies. (Contrast this to A/P: Both women are being courted by persistent men; but while Padme clearly has control in her relationship, Leia isn't given any.)
Only the woman in question is Leia Organa, who has no problems taking charge in all matters except her own love life. Just like every other "smart-ass" female in old movies. As someone mentioned in a comment to my LJ entry, there's a correlation between that scene and so many variations of it, and the male reaction to the liberated woman of that era: So she’s strong and independent, huh? Well, you’ll see, when it comes to love, she’s like any other girl: she wants the man to take charge.
H/L are so iconic and so part of our culture that it's hard - almost impossible - to want to see any flaws in their relationship. Which is understandable. However not wanting to see the flaws doesn't stop the flaws from being there.
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Date: 2009-03-29 06:58 pm (UTC)Let me put forth this argument. Han "takes charge" in that scene so to speak not just because he's the man, but also because he is older and in all likelihood, much more experienced than Leia at this sort of thing. There was a Mexican standoff going on in their relationship and somebody had to break the impasse. Leia IMO wasn't going to be the one to do it. She's too proud and probably terrified to death of what would happen once she gives into her feelings. After all, Han's commitment to the Rebellion (and by extension to her) was shaky at that point.
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Date: 2009-03-30 05:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-31 12:46 am (UTC)I think, EU aside, they're gonna have an awesome future ;).
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Date: 2009-03-31 06:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-08 02:44 pm (UTC)Anakin/Padme is creepy. *nods* Because Anakin is obsessed and Padme clearly can't live without him. Literally. Not even for their children.
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Date: 2009-03-29 10:35 am (UTC)And 10 years isn't that extreme when one is already above 20.
Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-29 04:31 pm (UTC)Now, I'm of the opine that Leia was always a strong woman, and if she truely hated Han, or found his advances 'creepy', she would have had his ass arrested or Han would have met with a few dozen of her closest 'freinds' in a dark corridor on Hoth for a 'little talk' long before the big kiss (and as others have asked, where was Chewie during all this? Surely one simple 'Hell no' would have had him running.)
The whole scene is full of 'don't stop'. Two strong people who have hid their feeling behind petty bickering, but it's damn pretty apparent that they have the hots for each other.
As for Anakin and Padme - Anakin may be clumsy in his 'romantic' approach (a stolen kiss is a mutual one) - I've never found it creepy or stalkerish, and the INSTANT Padme told him to back off, he did (and then SHE went chasing back after him).
Is it clumsy? Oh hell yes. Does it reek of being written by a man who longs for the 'hot woman'? Oh yes. Does it seem like it should have taken more than one movie for real 'romance' to blossom? Probably, but it is what it is...
And while Han and Leia and Anakin and Padme are seen as "creepy", fans seem to have NO problems with Luke falling in love with a psycho Mary Sue (that completely is just better than him at EVERYTHING) who wears his testicles on her hip like some kind of trophy....
Re: Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-29 06:06 pm (UTC)SO much word. The only thing Anakin remotely does to her without a permission is stare at her a few times, and if that's a stalker, then Han (and pretty much every male in the human race) is a full-fledged sex predator. And your argument for H/L works here too: if Padme was that bothered by Anakin's blatantly obvious attentions, she'd have asked for someone else to go to Naboo with her, and she certainly wouldn't have worn what she did there.
Re: Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-31 07:52 pm (UTC)Re: Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-29 06:24 pm (UTC)I have problems with it. I hate Mara and I hate what Luke became after he yoked himself to her. I'm glad she's dead -- why did it take so long for them to whack her? -- but unfortunately, her death has been used a reason to elevate her to sainthood.
Poor Luke. His love life sucks so bad, not just in canon, but in the parallel universe of the EU. It's a tragedy that Luke, who bravely stood up to the Emperor, is so whipped by the red-gold pestilence that he wouldn't sneeze without her written, notarized permission.
Re: Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-29 06:37 pm (UTC)Re: Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-29 06:48 pm (UTC)Re: Ok, Say what?
Date: 2009-03-30 10:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 05:13 pm (UTC)As for the "no means yes" issue...well, I can get pretty heated about that. Women have, in fact, been victimized for centuries under the notion that men can't help themselves, so if they behave a certain way, it's only because the women are sending certain signals to make them do so. It's why some people still believe that date rape doesn't exist, that there has to be some kind of mutual acceptance going on. It makes steam come out of my ears.
Having said that, I definitely don't think that Han belongs in that camp of piggish men. That kiss scene is quiet and subtle; there's nothing violent or forceful about it that I can see. Leia is participating in the kiss just as willingly as Han, and it's not like he tricked her into it. Once she's accepted her feelings for him, she's very proactive in their relationship. She goes to rescue him from Jabba, she's open about how she feels. She's not just a passive recipient of his irresistible advances. If she were constantly helpless in his arms, I'd be thoroughly disgusted with their relationship, but there's more give and take than that.
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Date: 2009-03-29 06:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-29 07:28 pm (UTC)As I said on another LJ, Han and Leia are clearly inspired by Rhett and Scarlett in 'Gone with the wind' who are way more dysfunctional than Han and Leia.
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Date: 2009-03-30 05:58 am (UTC)Leia was 22 years old in TESB. Han was 32 years old.